They're Only Women

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Re: They're Only Women

Postby wildlx » 25 Jan 2016, 08:13

Proofrdr wrote:Thank you for the clarifications, Wildlx. I totally agree with you.

Welcome, Proof :).
A lesbian is the rage of all women condensed to the point of explosion. “The Woman-Identified Woman” Radicalesbians (1970)
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Re: They're Only Women

Postby wildlx » 25 Jan 2016, 08:17

FranW wrote:I disagree, in that I believe a transwoman is a woman, and merits the female pronoun just as a ciswoman does.

Sure... Yet: “Trans women are women” is a lie that is as dangerous to transwomen as it is to women"
I also think this is worth reading WE ARE ALL WINSTON SMITH NOW
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Re: They're Only Women

Postby wildlx » 25 Jan 2016, 08:22

ElaineB wrote:
wildlx wrote:They press lesbians calling them transphobes, not to mention delusional conversations about their 'female d*cks' which are supposedly different from the male ones...


You say that like they all do it. There are jerks in every segment of society. I don't know what it feels like to be born in the wrong body, but I believe trans women when they say that happened. Given the effects of hormone-disrupting pollutants I think it's entirely possible that we're screwing up all sorts of things.

Not all of course, but a big majority which is very vocal and visible on social media. Still, I have transsexual male friends that are completely appalled at what goes on at the moment within the trans community (the partner of one of my friends was interviewed here and some of the harassment done by transwomen is mentioned - http://www.slate.com/articles/double_x/ ... ingle.html).
Nobody is 'born in the wrong body'. Science has shown that there is not such a thing as a 'female brain' or 'male brain' which is a premise of that narrative. Another premise of that narrative is that gender* is innate and not a social construct which would mean feminism makes no sense because males will always oppress females and we should do nothing to change our subordinate role. In the case of males, transgenderism has a lot to do with sexual fetish (You should read a bit about autogynephilia as in http://alicedreger.com/autogyn or Men Trapped in Men's Bodies by Anne A. Lawrence - full book here) and also in some cases with gender non-conformity leading to dysphoria. In the case of females it has a lot to do with inner misogyny/homophobia due to the rigid gender roles imposed in our societies. There are a lot of people detransitioning, especially in the case of females (see http://twentythreetimes.tumblr.com/ or http://redressalert.tumblr.com/), a fact which is almost not mentioned in the media.

From Anne Lawrence's (a transwoman) book re transwomen:

Two Types of Male-to-Female Transsexuals

Male-to-female (MtF) transsexuals—men who want to have sex reassignment surgery (SRS) and live as women—are often described by themselves and others as “women trapped in men’s bodies” (e.g., Benjamin, 1966 , p. 34; Person & Ovesey, 1974a , p. 17). This metaphor implies that these transsexuals not only want to look like women and live as women but that they also display the behavioral and psychological traits that are typical of women, their male bodies notwithstanding. It is doubtful whether any MtF transsexuals can accurately be described as women trapped in men’s bodies, but there are two distinctly different types of MtF transsexuals, and the metaphor is much more applicable to one type than to the other. One MtF transsexual type consists of males who have a life-long history of female typical interests, behaviors, and personality characteristics. From earliest childhood, these individuals behaved like girls, identi fi ed with girls, and often proclaimed themselves to be girls. Their interests, mannerisms, and preferred toys and activities were female-typical, and girls were their favored playmates. They began crossdressing openly in early childhood and continued to cross-dress into adulthood, and their cross-dressing was not associated with sexual arousal. Their feminine identifications and behaviors persisted throughout adolescence and into adulthood. They discovered that they were sexually attracted exclusively to men. They usually chose occupations, hobbies, and leisure activities that were female-typical.
If any MtF transsexuals deserve to be thought of as women trapped in men’s bodies, these pervasively feminine MtF transsexuals have the best claim. Because MtF transsexuals of this type are exclusively sexually attracted to men and thus homosexual relative to their biological sex, and because they resemble (or, more accurately, are ) the most feminine of homosexual men, they are usually referred to in the medical and scientific literature as homosexual MtF transsexuals.
There is a second MtF transsexual type, however, consisting of males who bear little resemblance to women trapped in men’s bodies. Although they intensely desire to be female, they display few of the interests, behaviors, and psychological traits that are typical of women. In most respects, they closely resemble ordinary nontranssexual men. From earliest childhood, these individuals knew they were boys and behaved like boys, although many of them report that they had secret fantasies about becoming female as far back as they can remember. Their interests, mannerisms, and preferred toys and activities were usually male-typical. In most cases, other boys were their favored playmates, but a few primarily engaged in solitary play. Some began cross-dressing in early childhood, almost always surreptitiously. Nearly all were cross-dressing secretly by the time of puberty, and their crossdressing was associated with intense sexual arousal. In other respects, however, their masculine interests and behaviors continued to be, at least superficially, unremarkable throughout adolescence and into adulthood. They rarely chose female-typical occupations and usually chose strongly male-typical ones, in fields such as engineering, computer programming, or military service. They discovered that they were either sexually attracted to women or, less commonly, were not strongly attracted to other people of either sex. Many of them fantasized at times about having sex with men, but only when they also fantasized about themselves as female; at other times, they found the idea of sex with men unappealing or repugnant. They also continued to be erotically aroused by cross-dressing and by the fantasy of being female—something traditionally associated with transvestic fetishism,
not transsexualism.
Several years ago, I described MtF transsexuals of this second type as “men trapped in men’s bodies” (Lawrence, 1998 ) , because in most respects they resemble nontranssexual men, although they genuinely do feel trapped in their male bodies and have an intense desire to have female bodies. Because transsexuals of this second type are nonhomosexual relative to their biological sex (i.e., they do not experience exclusive sexual attraction to men), they are usually referred to as nonhomosexual MtF transsexuals in the medical and scientific literature, to distinguish them from their exclusively homosexual MtF counterparts. Nonhomosexual MtF transsexuals are also, and more controversially, referred to as autogynephilic transsexuals, because some clinicians and theorists have concluded that these transsexuals almost always share an unusual erotic interest called autogynephilia —a propensity to be erotically aroused by the thought of being female.


* in the 'old sense' of the word (see http://www.troubleandstrife.org/new-art ... ut-gender/)
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Re: They're Only Women

Postby Sacchi » 25 Jan 2016, 11:41

Several thoughts on this.

1. In the case of limiting "official" transwoman status to people assigned male status at birth who were performatively female from a very young age, I think we have to take into account the cultural pressures for young boys to conceal any tendencies in that direction. Some can conceal them better than others, while those who can't are likely to suffer traumatic harassment. Success at concealment (quite likely at great personal cost) shouldn't disqualify anyone from judging their own inner identity.

2. I'm uncomfortable with assigning "male-normal" or "female normal" to any specific occupations. Yes, that tends to be the way things work in our culture, but at least some change is occurring, and we can hope for more.

3. I may well be way off course here, since online dating sites are entirely outside my experience, but is it fair to assume the behavior of transwomen on dating sites represents the behavior of all transwomen? I just don't know.

I've had much more close contact with transmen than with transwomen, of whom I've personally known only a few, but from what I've seen of the process of admitting and then claiming an identity that you were not originally assigned, I can't judge anyone who has gone that route. I can, in a case or two, mourn the identities under which I first knew some close friends, and I can understand the necessity, but I can't judge them. None of this pertains to the question of obnoxious behavior, of course.
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Re: They're Only Women

Postby Proofrdr » 25 Jan 2016, 12:36

I'll give it a look. Thanks.
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Re: They're Only Women

Postby ElaineB » 26 Jan 2016, 04:50

As Sacchi says, I don't care to judge people. I want to respect them for their own experience.
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Re: They're Only Women

Postby Proofrdr » 26 Jan 2016, 05:45

I absolutely agree with that. At the same time, I expect the reciprocity that others would respect me for my experience.

I've only ever been with one woman. I don't know how I would react if I were a single, unattached lesbian, and a transwoman wanted to date me. I do know, though, that if I didn't want to date her, that should be my choice, and I shouldn't be berated for it or made to feel that I was responsible for hurting her feelings. It's hard to be rejected, but that's part of the dating game. It happens to us all—gay, straight, or trans.
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Re: They're Only Women

Postby ElaineB » 26 Jan 2016, 10:12

Exactly.
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Re: They're Only Women

Postby FranW » 27 Jan 2016, 06:34

I don't believe "Transwomen are women" is a lie. IMO, gender isn't something I get to choose for another person. If someone tells me they are a woman, then they are a woman, whether they are cis or trans. If someone tells me they are a lesbian, then they are a lesbian to me. If someone tells me they are gender fluid, or asexual, or nongendered, then they are.

Behaviour, however, I will judge: an asshat is an asshat :D
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Re: They're Only Women

Postby Proofrdr » 27 Jan 2016, 07:40

I agree! :-)
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